The Sequoia Breeze

Rebecca: Welcome, listeners, to the Sequoia Breeze podcast, a breath of fresh air for your homeschool. I am your host, Rebecca LaSavio. And today we get to talk about one of my favorite things besides books. We're going to talk about gardening with your kids. And I got to meet this guest when I was at the Northern California Homeschool convention this summer and pretty instantly knew that I wanted to have her on the podcast. So I am so grateful that she agreed to join me. And I hope that you will stay tuned and learn about some really easy ways to get gardening with your kids, whether you know what you're doing or not. Today I have Kaitlin Mitchell with me. And I recently met Kaitlin at the Northern California Homeschool Convention, where she led a breakout session about gardening with kids kids and was selling her really cool gardening curriculum. And I'm, I am really excited about gardening, and I'm really excited about Kaitlin. So thank you for being here today.

Kaitlin: Thank you, Rebecca, for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Rebecca: So talk to us about how did you get into gardening?

Kaitlin: So it's interesting. So I grew up in a part of San Diego that is pretty, is known for being pretty agriculture heavy. But I can't say that I was gardening as a child. My dad was always outdoors growing things and really took care of our yard, but not really growing the sort of things that you can eat, not a fruit and vegetable garden. And it wasn't until I was older, I was in my later twenties. I'm in my later forties now. And my husband, I was pregnant with my first son, and my husband was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease called Crohn's disease. And it is an autoimmune disease that does affect your digestion. And I really just started looking at, yes, we were working with doctors and find the right medication for him, but we also, I wanted to look at what we were eating and how we were eating. And at that point, we just had a small condominium with a small deck. And I started small. I started growing herbs and lettuce and greens, whatever I could, in our shady little space, and fell in love with it. And then fast forward a little bit more when we were able to purchase our home and had a little bit more space to grow with my two boys, just from them being toddlers, we were out there growing and just really making some great family memories and just getting ourselves to, getting the kids to learn with all of their senses. So that's kind of how I fell in love with it. And then I was a classroom teacher. I taught fourth grade for eight years, and I stopped teaching when the boys were one and three, when my husband was going through a rough patch. And we just needed to decrease the stress in our lives. And so I took a year's sabbatical. He got healthy. We figured out how to make it work financially. And so I stayed home with the boys until my older son started kindergarten. And then I was recruited to help with the school garden program. And then I absolutely fell in love with that program and loved the idea of getting kids outdoors and learning with all their senses and making it and just realizing how you can take gardening and you can really reinforce everything that they're learning in other subject areas. Like, you can tie in so much math and science and social studies. And it just gives the kids who, you know, aren't necessarily auditory learners or just visual learners, but really, every type of learner can learn so much when they're moving their body and they're outdoors. And so I did that. I ran that program for seven years, and through the course of that, that's when I developed the Rutabaga education curriculum. And then from there, I've done summer camps with kids and kids classes, adult classes. And it really is my passion. I see what a difference it has made for our family and for my boys and for all the kids I've worked with. I feel like it's the most community building experience and just there's all these mini lessons on top of, you know, reinforcing other subject areas, but in patience and resilience. And so it's my passion to just teach families how to grow and. And have them make their own memories with their own families.

Rebecca: What are some of those changes you've seen in kids as you've gardened with them?

Kaitlin: So I think so working within a public school setting and working in a classroom, I feel like I cannot think of a more equalizing, I guess, activity. So it doesn't matter how well you throw baseball, it doesn't matter how well you read. It doesn't, you know, it's when everybody's out there together and growing together, I just feel like there's a sense of community and just confidence. I know from personal experience, too. I have a child, my youngest learns a little bit differently, and he has dyslexia and dysgraphia, which affects his handwriting. And I feel like he, who has been doing this since he was two, he has gained so much confidence being out there. And even with kind of the, like, engineering aspects of gardening, with the art, irrigation and planning. And he, I feel like that confidence has carried over into other aspects of his life. And for both my boys, too. I feel like it teaches this sense of patience. And in this day and age, patience is kind of a hard thing to come by with, with technology and everything kind of at your fingertips, but you can't just click a button and have your seed grow and click another button and eat your tomato. Like, it takes patience and it takes resilience and a lot of problem solving. And we do say, like, what? My, my younger one, I feel like he is the most when it comes to common sense and being out in the real world. He has so much, his problem solving ability is amazing to the point that we say, if there was ever, like in a zomb, a zombie apocalypse, this is kind of weird, but if there was that he might just save human civilization because he's just such a good problem solver. And it's, I don't know, I, it's just, it's on top of also, you know, just being open to eating healthy food and to trying new things. And it's just really, it's endless. All the different things, all the many things that can go into that you learn besides you know, how to grow.

Rebecca: So you mentioned a minute ago that you created this curriculum called Rutabaga, which cracks me up because it's a fun word to say. I'd love to know how you, how you fell on that name, but it's easy to remember.

Kaitlin: Totally. I wish I had a really great story for that, but really it's because I just love the word and I think it's kitschy. And I began, at first I was like, easy peasy. You know, kind of the play on words. Easy peasy kids gardening. And then I did some research, and there's like, easy peasy everything out there. And then I did a little bit more research because I was doing a summer camp and I thought Rutabaga kids sounded really cute. And so then I did more research, and there's not a lot of Rutabaga stuff out there. And then also I started playing around with a logo. And it was my mom, I wanted kind of a vintage looking rutabaga. And it was my mom who said, gosh, it kind of looks like a globe on the bottom. And so I just went with it. I just, and sometimes, too, like, I did a market over the weekend, and people don't grow a lot of rutabagas here in San Diego. It's more of a colder weather thing. But sometimes, even when I'm explaining the company name, it gives me an opportunity to teach somebody something. So a rutabaga is kind of a hybrid of a turnip and a cabbage. So, yeah, honestly, that's my answer. I just like the way it sounds. It's fun to say, and it does. It sticks in your head.

Rebecca: So how did you end up creating a curriculum instead of, I mean, you're there teaching kids in the schools? Where did. The idea is this, is this curriculum meant for teachers, for homeschooler? Like, what was the goal?

Kaitlin: So the original goal was we had a very small garden program at the school. Not every classroom participated. Not every teacher was on board. It was difficult to get parent volunteers. I remember being at kindergarten socials trying to talk about the program to parents, and no one would make eye contact with me because they didn't know what they were signing up for. And so my goal was first to get the teachers on board. So I started to write the curriculum so that the lessons were written in a way that they were cross curricular. And we were tying in age appropriate math and science and social studies and things that they were learning in the classroom, so that when we were going out into the garden, we were also reinforcing what they were learning in the classroom. So I wanted to get all the teachers on board so that they were comfortable giving up that instruction time to have the kids go outside and then also the parent volunteers. I wanted the lessons to be something that made sense and were easy to teach. So I wrote them almost in a way that they're written like scripts and they don't require a ton of prep because I knew if we were going to get parent volunteers and they were going to have, and I was asking them to come out on a weekly basis that if there was a ton of preparation, and these were parents who also worked, some of them worked full time jobs and would take time out to come and do this with the kids. And so it needed to be simple. And then the lessons also, they're scaffolded. So they're written in a way where they build upon themselves within a season, and then they. They go from season to season and then kind of that spiralized learning from year to year, where you're touching back on seasonal topics on an annual basis, but diving a little bit deeper each time. And so the parents were learning so much alongside the kids, and. And I wanted it to be clear that you didn't need to be a gardener, you didn't need to be a teacher to do this with the kids, and you could have a great experience. And now the program, which my boys have now aged out of the school, but the program is still thriving. I just dropped off a bunch of garden tools to them two days ago, and it's just. And it's really grown around the city. And I. When I decided to publish the lessons, and the reason I did that was because our school was starting to get a lot of recognition. We had received some grant money. We won a big award. It's called classroom of the Future foundation. And we won. It was just like a really impressive award for our program. And so people were interested in the lessons, and I said, well, I thought to myself that I should publish them and then rewrite them in a way that not only could be used at Silvergate, which is a school, but could be used at any school, but could also be used by any garden club, could be used by a parent, could be used by anybody that they could feel confident in teaching the kids about eating seasonally, but also growing seasonally and give you a purpose each time when you're going out in your garden, because you can go out in your garden and you can. You can plant things and you can make observations and you can journal, but sometimes you really need kind of a purpose behind each of those. Those times that you go out there just to keep the kids attention and give them something to look forward to. And I wanted to incorporate in each lesson where you would either be trying something new to eat or you would be doing some sort of recipe. I just wanted to make it a whole experience and something that both parents and kids would look forward to and that the teachers could really get behind as well, so that it just. It took five years to develop the curriculum, and. And it was a lot of trial and error, too. There were lessons that I thought were amazing that would bomb, and I. And then there were ones that I didn't feel as excited about, but then I would see how the kids and the parents would react to it, and so I would make those even better. So it was definitely a process to get to the point where it is today. But, yeah, I'm really proud of it, though. I think it's. It's just even being at the convention where I got to meet you and talking to families who had started using the curriculum last year, and then them coming up to me and showing me pictures of their garden and doing the activities and, you know, you don't always get that feedback, but it's just. It just makes me feel so good that what is being put out there? People are making it their own and creating their own memories and experiences and teaching their kids to be open minded to different types of food and just, you know, having all those experiences together.

Rebecca: What if you are working with kids who are reluctant to garden with you?

Kaitlin: So one thing about, well, with the lessons, it's I kind of tried to create sections, so you kind of gauge it knowing the kids that you're, you're working with. So there's, there's kind of an introduction piece. There is kind of a main content piece. And then if you have a picky eater, then you may not do the recipe. But then again, I always encourage kids to, to either just, you don't have to eat it. Maybe you just lick it, maybe you just smell it. Maybe you just have some sort of experience. And, and then if it's not for you, instead of saying, ugh, gross, just say it's not for me. And I think that's just a good lesson to learn anyways because your kids are going to be in experiences where they're maybe not eating with you and it may not be their taste, but just say, it's not for me and move on from there. I do find, though, that when kids have a hand in growing something, it's an automatic buy in to want to try it. Like, you've put so much time and effort, let's just say carrots, for example, that you put so much time and effort. And carrots, they say that you can from like seed to harvest is, you know, about like 50 days for us, for some reason. It takes longer. It takes like 70 days, but you have waited so long that you're going to want to try that carrot. And then if you're also, if you're doing this with maybe a small group, if you have like a couple of families that you're doing this with, or in our case, a classroom, there is a little bit of a positive peer pressure involved in that, that, you know, you see your classmates or you see your friends being open minded to trying something, it makes you a little bit more, little bit more open to trying it as well. And, you know, you just, you take it situation by situation. I say some kids don't like getting their hands dirty then just to have gloves for them. And then, you know, you kind of read your own children and their comfort level and it's little by little. And the beauty of it is you have all year to expose them to this and have them feel more comfortable with being outdoors with trying new things. And, you know, you just build upon it from week to week.

Rebecca: And you don't have to start a garden by ripping up your whole yard, right?

Kaitlin: Not at all. And that is one thing. I had so many conversations about it this weekend. You know, San Diego, especially where I live, people were not blessed with having these huge yards. So many people, when I met at the convention where I met you have all this land, and I just, the envy of just landing just sounds amazing, but you really don't need a ton of space to grow. I love those barrel planters, and I don't know how else to describe it, but it's almost like a barrel cut in half. And I saw them at Home Depot, they saw them at plant nurseries, and we would, for our kindergarteners, every classroom just had one of those barrels. And for example, for fall gardening, and if you're new to gardening, too, I do recommend starting in the fall versus starting in the spring. Well, if you want to start in the spring, that's amazing, too. But I fall really is the best time because you're growing your vegetables and they do have a shorter seed to harvest timeframe, so it's less time for disease and, you know, a little bit more immediate satisfaction, I guess, because, like, a tomato went from seed to harvest, that could be over 100 days.

Rebecca: So I want to. I want to stop you there and touch on what you just said, because I actually watched a little video on your website and you changed my definition of vegetable and fruit.

Kaitlin: Oh, I know. So I have this whole thing that is the very first lesson, actually, in the fall books for every grade level, because I feel like once you get that understanding of a difference between a fruit and vegetable, it really, it all makes sense about what to grow when. So I'll give you my whole little spiel. I usually use my hands a lot to describe this, so I'll try and describe it as much as I can with words. But if you basically think of the parts of a plant. So let's imagine I'm holding up my thumb right now. I've got my seed. And from your seed, you grow your roots, and from your seed, you also grow your stem and then your leaves and your flowers. And for many plants, from the life cycle then goes from flower to seed, and that's its whole life cycle, and it starts all over again. But then we have this whole other category of plants, edible plants that are fruit bearing. So fruit bearing, you've got your seed, your roots, your stems, your leaves, your flowers, and then from there, you bear fruit, and your fruit are holding your seeds for the next generation. And if you think of plants that have to do that whole other step of their life cycle, those plants need so much sun and so much energy from the sun in order or in warmth in order for that to happen. So anything that's fruit bearing. And when I say fruits, I'm talking about tomatoes, cucumbers, pumpkins, watermelon, zucchini, all of those are fruits. People sometimes categorize those in the vegetable realm. Those are all fruits. And then vegetables are all the other parts of the plant. So vegetables are seeds. Vegetables are stems and leaves and immature flowers like broccoli or cauliflower. So you're going to grow your fruit bearing plants so that your fruits have enough energy to actually be ready to harvest in your warm and your hot seasons. But in the fall, when the days are getting shorter and the temperatures, I mean, it's still really hot right now, but the days are starting to get shorter and the temperatures are going to get cooler. That's your cool season, and that's when you want to really focus on your vegetables. So your carrots, your, you know, all your leafy greens, your cauliflower, your broccoli, those sort of things. So, yeah, that's the difference between fruits.

Rebecca: And vegetables and all of your root vegetables too, right?

Kaitlin: Yes. Your rutabagas, your beets, your radishes. Your turn. Oh, and radishes, if you're starting this fall, radishes are super fun to do with kids because they do have a pretty short seed to harvest time. And their seeds are a good size, you'll find with, like, carrots and lettuce, they have such tiny little seeds, and it's a little bit trickier to get them to germinate. But radishes are pretty hardy and they have a good size seed. You can bury them a little bit deeper. And, yeah, it's just a really fun thing. And then if you can get your kids to eat radishes, which both my boys do, and I have to admit, I didn't even eat them until I was an adult. And then I grew them and discovered them, and now I love them and use them in everything. So that's a great kind of entryway into getting your kids to grow and garden with you.

Rebecca: So if parents are listening to this and are intrigued, they are tired of maybe. I've just, I've heard a lot of people talking about either not trusting the grocery stores or not wanting to buy food at the grocery stores. And, you know, I think that the interest in gardening is growing a lot. Yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we all know what we're doing. Do we need to know what we're doing before we do this with our kids?

Kaitlin: No, I don't think so. I didn't. I feel like the way that I personally learn best is through doing. And it kind of started out with us as an experiment. Like, let's just try it and let's see what happens. And I think when you go into it with this, that sort of mentality of not expecting perfection, just kind of see what happens and celebrate the little wins. Don't get bummed out by things that don't work, but kind of problem solve and think like what maybe happened or what, what could we. Let's do some research about. It looks like this one has maybe some powdery mildew. Or it looks like what is eating my plant. Do a little bit of research, do some problem solving. But I say start small. So I'm just going to give you. I think I did this in the class where my class was called. Yes, you do have a green thumb. Because people say, I don't have a green thumb, but they do. But start small. You could this fall in a large pot or those barrel planters that I mentioned, something of that size, you could plant. Maybe go to the nursery and get a six pack of lettuce and you can plant that in there. You can also do carrot seeds. You could do radish seeds. Maybe you want to get onions. Onions are a really good way. They're a good pest repellent. So when you companion plant those with your other vegetables, it'll keep away some of those pests. You can maybe put some flowers in there, like some marigolds. Also a really good pest repellent. And then as you grow your, your lettuce and your, your seeds are starting to germinate, then you can harvest your lettuce. You can take the outside leaves and allow the lettuce to continue to grow from the center. And that creates a little bit more space as your other seeds, as they're starting to come up. So, I mean, that's just one example of something that you could do to start this fall. But you don't really need to know what you're doing. You can do as much research as you want, or you can buy some seeds. You can buy some good soil. You can. And you can start small and just see how it goes and learn through doing. That's just, I feel like for me, when I even give gardening advice. I really only give gardening advice of things I've actually done myself, even if I've read something. But if I haven't done it myself and had the experience and I don't feel comfortable sharing that experience. So, I don't know, I just kind of feel like, go for it and see what happens and adjust and do it differently the next time around.

Rebecca: Have you ever used grow bags?

Kaitlin: Oh, I love grow bags.

Rebecca: Because they're so cheap?

Kaitlin: Yes. Do you want to hear the whole science? Why grow bags are so great? Actually, go for it. Okay, so grow bags. So when you do grow in something that is of a natural material, as opposed to just growing in, like, a plastic pot. So imagine if you, let's say you are growing in a plastic pot, for example. I'm just gonna say, so let's say you've planted your plants in a plastic pot, and when those roots start to grow, when they hit the side of a plastic potential, they will turn, and then they will just continue to grow kind of in a spiralized manner. And that's when your plants kind of become root bound and they grow sideways as opposed to growing down to get the nutrients and, and to really create a strong root structure. When you grow in a grow bag or in a wooden planter or in, like, a clay pot, those are actually natural substances that do allow oxygen to get to the soil. So if you're growing in one of those containers, when the roots touch the side, the root can actually sense that there's oxygen that's getting through the material, and it's called air pruning. And so the root stops growing at that point, and then the energy is sent back to the plant to establish roots elsewhere. And so it creates a really strong root system. So I love grow bags because they do. They're made with a natural fiber. I could, I love the grow bags. There's a company called epic gardening, and they have really good ones. I love using theirs. Or you can do a search on Amazon and find them or your nursery and you can ask the people that work there. But grow bags are awesome. And also, if you're limited on space, they're mobile. So if you have an area that has some sun, but the seasons are changing and it's losing sun, you can move it to a sunnier spot.

Rebecca: So handles on them.

Kaitlin: They have made from a fabric. And. Yeah. And I love potatoes. Oh, my gosh. Potatoes are so much fun to grow with kids. And I always grow my potatoes in grow bags because, like, five gallon grow bags because then when it's time to harvest, I can just dump out the bag, as opposed to when I plant potatoes in one of our beds. If I'm digging out the potatoes, sometimes when I'm digging, I might stab some of the potatoes and lose a few of them, whereas this, I can just dump them out. And then the kids and I, we can just, like, search for them with our fingers, and we can get all the potatoes out. So. Yeah, their grow bags are awesome.

Rebecca: And you can get, what, ten in a pack of, like, in a pack of ten for, like, 15 or $20, I think.

Kaitlin: Exactly. Yeah. They're not, they're not. They're not very expensive. And you can get them in different sizes, like herbs. I. A few years ago, I did these herb kits, and I did them in three gallon grow bags. So you could do or two gallon, I mean, and they go up to, like, 15 gallon. So. And I will say, if you get a ten gallon and then you buy 1.5 cubic yard or cubic foot of soil, like, that's like the perfect combination. So, yeah, those are. Those are super easy to get. And you really, you. If you do an Amazon search, not that I'm here promoting Amazon, but I do use Amazon that you. There's. There are a lot of different options out there. But the epic gardening ones, because I've tested a bunch of them, I will.

Rebecca: Say those are my favorite, is epic in San Diego.

Kaitlin: It is an epic scene. Yeah. It's Kevin Espiritu. Yes. Yeah, I met him. He's. He's very nice, a very knowledgeable, very smart guy. And he's really built a great, I mean, a great company for himself. And, and he does his. So I feel like I'm all about Peronne. Epic. But I really do, like, think it's a great company. They also have great seed starting pots, too, so he's got some good stuff.

Rebecca: So let's. Let's talk specifically. I know you didn't create this curriculum for the homeschool world.

Kaitlin: No.

Rebecca: And that's not necessarily been your, your primary focus with your company. And yet, it's a really easy crossover. Yes. And it sounds like you've gotten to know the homeschool world some through this. And I know your curriculum has grade levels on the front, but those are loosey goosey. So talk to us a little bit about that. How do we translate all these great ideas about gardening into our homeschool world?

Kaitlin: Okay. So. Well, one thing, in retrospect, I did put the grade levels on the books because that's what our school, I did the lessons with my younger son, with his preschool and then with the kindergarten all the way through fourth grade. So I did kind of put those grade levels on there. It really is more of a suggestion in retrospect. It should have, it should be, the first three books should be pre k, kinder. The second, I would say primary. And then the third and fourth grade books, I would call them more like secondary grades. And I would, even with a group of my son's friends last year, and he was in 6th grade, I did the first and second grade books. And even though he's had this all before at the school, and, but for a majority of these boys, and it was a group of boys, so it was like I needed to keep it interesting and, and keep them busy. They loved it and they didn't see that to them, it didn't seem too young, any of it. So it is more of a kind of a recommendation. I even have a girlfriend who uses the third and fourth grade books with high school kids because it is, there is a little bit more science heavy than the younger books because we're getting into, like, animal or, well, plant classifications and families and, you know, macro and micronutrients. You know, you're getting, there's like a periodic table of elements and, you know, so it is a little bit richer in that aspect. But, and as far as the homeschooling audience, it's funny because I finished the last book in January of 2020, and, you know, the whole world kind of shut down during that time period. And I was working really hard because we didn't know what was going to happen. But I was working really hard to keep the program continuing because I thought we were going to be back in school, you know, in the no time at all. And then even in the fall when the kids didn't go back, I did these videos on a weekly basis that the teachers would share with the kids because I thought when we get back to school, then we'll just jump right back into the program. And then it's also at that time that I realized that there was this audience, this homeschooling audience that the books were perfect for, especially when you have more flexibility in your time because, because it's about 25 to 30 minutes a week to do the lessons and then, of course, maintaining your garden, that it's easy to fit in within your day or within your week. And I've learned so much more now about homeschooling that, I mean, at that convention, I have, I do programs like, there's like a 3d printing guys that are there. And that has become a big part of something that we now do at home. And I've learned all these different amazing opportunities of what kids can learn and do. And I feel like the gardening is. There wasn't, not that there's definitely, there were other people there that were promoting their outdoor activities. But I do feel like there was a place or kind of a need for what I could provide, that I could give kind of this structure of how to get out there with your kids and kind of make it your own. And so it does work really well. And when I wrote the lessons, too, I wrote them in a way that, yes, I'd love to see them in every school in the country. I would love, I would love for every child to have that opportunity who may not get this type of education at home, but I would just love to see every family sharing these experiences. And within the schools, I always had this dream of, like, the kids would learn it and then they would take it home and they would teach their families. And with the homeschooling audience, it's like the families are already doing all this together. So it just, it lends itself very well to kind of a, when there's an opportunity of more flexibility about how you plan your days, it just fits in really well.

Rebecca: So we've talked already. You've mentioned throughout the conversation different sort of benefits of gardening for kids. But I want to, I want to put it all in one answer.

Kaitlin: Okay. And I'll try not to get too wordy. I am a little wordy, yes.

Rebecca: Oh, that's okay. You're excited. So why, what is it about getting our kids outside to garden that, I mean, we can go to the store and we can buy the carrots and they're there instantly, or we can spend all the time and effort to set up a place to grow the carrots, take care of them for a couple of months. And why do that? Why do we want to get our kids in the dirt and outside working on this stuff? And even when they're sort of fussy, I don't feel like watering them right now.

Kaitlin: Yeah, I. Gosh, there's, there's so many reasons. I, I mean, there's, there's obviously, like, the physical health aspect of it, you know, getting outdoors and being active and getting fresh air and, and there's a mental health component of it, of just, I know personally when I'm having a rough day, sometimes I just need to go outside and get my hands in the dirt, and half an hour later, I'm like, good as gold. I'm, like, feeling like I'm, you know, I'm just at a place where I feel much more at peace. And so there's like, the physical health benefits, there's the mental health benefits, there's the connection aspect of it, of something creating core memories with your family. I feel like that's just who we are as a family. My children will always know me as a crazy garden lady, and I love it. I love that they have this core memory of me and of what we have accomplished together. And so there's that aspect of it. There's also, I touched on it in the beginning, so just the immediate satisfaction in this day and age. And I have two children, two boys who are polar opposites in their personalities. One who just doesn't really have interest in being on a screen too long. The other one, if we let him, we'd be on a screen all day long. And I feel like it's just as important for both of them to take those breaks, to get outside, to connect, to have conversations, to learn to have a experiences together and just in the aspects of, like, with the world. Just that, that being resilient and being flexible because things don't always go as planned. You know, you're working with nature and so you've got a be, you need to, you've got to observe, and then you've got to pivot, and then you've got to try new things and you just, and then you got to work from there. So just the, that resiliency aspect is so important and that being flexible because, you know, you never know what's going to happen from day to day. So if you can have those be something that you've observed and actually participated in, then it really does transcend to other aspects of life, you know, and on top of that, just showing them, you know, things that they're learning in other subject areas, how those things really do apply in real life. I mean, I will have my boys sometimes say, like, when am I ever going to use this in life? I mean, even things about history. And then I have a whole lesson for the older kids about the history of potatoes, which is actually fascinating. And, you know, you see how when you learn not just where your food comes from in your own garden, but really, like, the history of food and the impact that it's had on different cultures all over the world, you know, you also feel connected with different cultures all over the world. So it makes you just more open minded with what you eat and just more open minded to people who may live a little bit differently than you. So I don't know. It's. Rebecca, there's, there's so there's so much. Even the aspects of just being, like, kind to the planet, you know, being kind to the creatures that you encounter in the planet and you know how to take care of your soil because you're being kind to the future generations who are going to be interacting with that soil. So it's just, it's endless. All the benefits that go to just getting outdoors and planting a seed and watching what grows and see what happens and to get well.

Rebecca: And it can really be a revelation for people sometimes, too. Like, the difference in taste between what's in the pull out of your garden.

Kaitlin: Yes. My boys are such, like, if we go to a restaurant, they're such tomato snobs because the tomatoes don't taste like anything. Because the tomatoes that we grow are so good, and it's. I can't. Well, I do. There's, there's some great tomato sauces out there, but when you learn how to make your own tomato sauce, your own pasta sauce, which is so easy, like, you just need to either roast them in the oven or saute them up in a saucepan. Just a little bit of olive oil and salt and pepper and herbs if you want. It's like, you realize how good food that is fresh can actually taste, and you start to crave it. You really do. Like, you crave that flavor that you can get from something you've grown yourself versus the flavor of something that maybe was harvested three weeks ago and it doesn't have the same flavor and also doesn't have the same nutrition as something that you just picked the day before or that morning. So, yeah.

Rebecca: And I would like to encourage families. If you try this and it doesn't go super well, try it again next year. Because. Because one of the things about, like, I mean, this is true in so many places, but in gardening, you learn so much from your failures.

Kaitlin: Absolutely.

Rebecca: You know, this fell apart here. Like, right now, I'm growing a whole bunch of flowers in my front yard, and they are so happy, and I'm growing them in my backyard, and they're a disaster. So I know they are not getting enough sun. They're too close to the house, and so it's reflecting heat and they're getting too hot when they do get sun, these various reasons. And so next year, I won't plant them there. I've been trying for, like, four years to figure out what to put in this space. And I haven't figured it out yet, but you find, like, so much of what to make will make it successful comes out of what didn't I work?

Kaitlin: Exactly. That's where you learn the most that you. I remember the. The first year that we grew corn. So this is like 14 years. This is so long ago. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew that they should be kind of planted in, like, a block pattern because of just how they pollinate. And so I. And we had the most glorious corn where I'm like, I am the corn, the corn goddess. Like, I am so amazing growing corn. I have not been able to grow corn that well since. And I not. And it's gotten better, but different pet. And sometimes it was just nature. Like, we got a weird fungus one year, and then one year we got crazy grasshoppers. And, you know, so sometimes it's not. It's out of your control, and you're. You kind of have a different obstacle from year to year. But will I stop growing corn? I will not. Like, I will just. I'll. And then I learned the lesson of, you should just plant one type of corn together. You don't want to cross pollinate with different varieties because you get really funky corn. So if you do, just make sure they're really far apart from each other. So I learned that because I had a season of really funky corn. If I didn't have that, then I wouldn't have really. I may have read that somewhere, but for me, I really have to experience something for it to stick. And it. Yeah, just. Just go for it and adjust and do it differently next time. And that may or may not work, but just people that sometimes they expect it to be perfect, then you're kind of setting yourself up. You have to understand that you're working with nature, and nature has some predictability, but there's a lot of unpredictability, too, from year to year. I mean, even this summer, we had such an overcast summer all the way through July. So it was. And that's just where I live in particular. And so it was. It was difficult to grow things that I'm just kind of behind schedule with some of. Some of our crops where, because I knew that if I planted them, we're in that sort of environment, I would just get powdery mildew. So now I'm playing a little bit of ketchup, but that's just this year, and we'll see what next year is like.

Rebecca: And you, there really are, like, if you find you like it, there's a lot of garden people out there that would love to talk about gardening.

Kaitlin: Yes. Well, and that's, I know before my husband sometimes because he, I mean, he does this with me, but really, if it's, if it's something, the fruit and vegetable part of our outdoor space is all me. Like, he, he definitely enjoys it and he's out there with me. But it is. So sometimes we're out with other couples and not, not every single one of my friends is into gardening. You know, it's not, I'm kind of the crazy garden lady to them, too. But, but when I get someone who wants to chat about it, or just even when someone who's open to learning about it, when I have an opportunity, I mean, just when you're asking about fruits and vegetables, I love talking about that stuff. So I'm actually doing, and I know this is down San Diego, but I am going to do a series of garden classes this fall because I just want, I miss teaching. And so I just want to teach some moms who will then do this and kind of be the experts, feel like they're the experts or they can feel comfortable teaching with their own families. And I don't know. It's so much fun to talk about. And I can't say I ever would have imagined 20 years ago that I would think this is so much fun to talk about. But now I think to talk about.

Rebecca: One thing is flipping back to the curriculum real quick. I did have a question while you were talking is, does it all build on itself? So if you're, let's say you've got a family with a fourth grader, a first grader and a three year old, where would you recommend they start?

Kaitlin: I would do the first and second grade. I always say, try and meet in the middle. And when I say it builds upon themselves, itself, it's really. So the gardening component, the garden instructions, is the same for every grade level because that part's the same. It's more, the activities that are more different by age. An example I would give is every single age has a lesson about pumpkins. With the pre king kindergarten, the lesson about pumpkins is it's that it's a, the little, even though they're little, they're learning the term circumference. And you do this kind of estimation activity where you're guessing the circumference of the pumpkin and you use a string and you've measured ahead of time. And then you're comparing their guesses versus your guesses, and you're saying it's having, like, conversations with greater and less than. And then with the first and second grade, the pumpkins activity, you're talking about the scientific method and you're learning the term hypothesis. And so you do some experiments with the pumpkins and you're making hypotheses about, you know, whether the pumpkin is going to sink or float. And then when you get to the third and fourth grade, the pumpkin activity, you're talking about the lines on a pumpkin. So just a little tidbit. The more lines on a pumpkin, that means some more seeds. And so you open up the pumpkin, you do kind of an estimated counting of one of the lines, and then you multiply that by the lines. So that's you're doing repeated addition, you're doing multiplication. So that's kind of how the activities are different, but the garden instruction. So it's kind of like you have your lesson that is usually about, like what you're eating seasonally, and then you have your garden portion, which is about what you're growing seasonally because those are different, because in the fall, you're harvesting all your warm season fruits, but you're also starting your cool season garden. So the garden part, so what they do build upon themselves in that way within a year. But if you did first and second grade for the age range that you described, the older kid is still going to be interested in that hypothesis activity, even though they're in 7th grade and it is first. It's just refreshing them of what the scientific method is. And they may not know whether a pumpkin sinks or floats and if the size matters and all that. So they're going to enjoy that experiment part of it, and then they're going to do the garden activity that's going to be relevant for no matter what age. So when you get to week four and you're learning about pumpkins, the garden activity is actually planting potatoes. So it's how to take a seed potato, which is an old potato, and to either plant that in a grow bag or a pot or if in the ground, if you have the space. And then when you fast forward to week eight or nine, then there's a lesson about potatoes, and you're learning all bottom. There's a chart that refers to the potato that you planted four or five weeks prior. And so that's, that's how the, they kind of build upon themselves. But with, with the age range you were describing, I would meet it in the middle, because the more that you can do all together just makes it, you know, you're just creating more of those core memories and it's more of a shared experience. And then there's more of a whole family celebration when you're harvesting something that everybody had something to do with it.

Rebecca: So families, you've probably figured out by now, Rutabaga gardening is a vendor, so you can order these books if you want. And Kaitlin has a whole website, so you can, there's lots of resources on there. And I feel pretty confident talking to you, Kaitlin, that you're pretty accessible if people have garden questions and they want to get started.

Kaitlin: Yeah. So it's, it's just me. So if you go to the website, which is Rudabaga gardening.com, and there's even a contact, it's like right there in the top. If that contact comes to me, my email is Kaitlin@rutabagaeducation.com, so you can always shoot me an email. It's pretty easy for me to answer garden questions, so I have no problem with people reaching out. And if I can help you get growing, especially this fall, and I really, if you feel intimidated by gardening, whether you use the curriculum or whether you just want to kind of create these memories and get outdoors and incorporate this into your day with your own families, I really encourage you to try doing that this fall because fall is the best time. The weather is going to get cooler, so it's going to be nice to be outside and you're going to really focus on your vegetables and who doesn't want their kids eating more vegetables. So that would be my push to just kind of go for it and, yeah, and reach out if you have any questions. I'm also an Instagram. It's just utabaga gardening, so you can always send me a message there. And yeah, like I said, I love talking about this stuff and I love if I could get the whole world doing this with their, with their kids and just making them better, you know, ambassadors for the planet 20 years from now, then that would be amazing. So it's my purpose.

Rebecca: Thank you so much, Kaitlin. I am really pleased that you could join us today and share all of this information with our Sequoia Grove families.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. It was so nice to talk to you again, Rebecca. I loved meeting you up north, and I really appreciate it.

Rebecca: Thank you for joining us today. I hope this episode has been a breath of fresh air for your homeschool. I hope that you feel inspired to get outside with your kids. And get some things growing. It's not too late in the fall and you can spend see what succeeds and spend the winter thinking and dreaming about the spring and what you could plant. Then you can order some gardening supplies with fun. So talk to your HST's about that. And as we mentioned, Rutabaga is a vendor with us and so we are able to get those resources as well. But most importantly, I hope that you will simply enjoy the outdoors and enjoy growing. Throw a few flower seeds out there with the veggies and have a wonderful time. I've been your host, Rebecca LaSavio. See you next time.