The Sequoia Breeze

Rebecca: Welcome back, listeners, to the Sequoia Breeze podcast. A breath of fresh air for your homeschool for six seasons. I can hardly believe this is the beginning of season six. I'm so glad that you've joined me. Your host, Rebecca LaSavio. If you've been listening from the beginning. Thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you. If you've just found the sequoia breeze, welcome. I'm delighted that you're here. Have you ever heard of a literature based education and been intrigued? Or do you think we really aren't readers and that's not going to work for us? Or maybe it doesn't seem like an education that doesn't involve textbooks or workbooks would be enough. So today we get to talk to a representative from Bookshark all about literature based education.

Rebecca: What is it?

Rebecca: How does it benefit your children?

Rebecca: Does it work?

Rebecca: But we'll also talk about book shark. What do you do when that big, amazing box of books shows up on your doorstep? We have all kinds of great information in this episode, so stick around and enjoy the conversation.

Rebecca: I am pleased to introduce you to Janna Koch, who is a representative with Bookshark. And many of you have heard of Bookshark as a curriculum company, and you may know what it is and you may be have lots of questions about it. And so there's lots to talk about here. And I know that as lots of our families are using Bookshark, some are a little unsure how to make this giant box of books work for them. And there's so many advantages to a literature based education, and there's lots of tips and tricks to be able to tackle that big stack of books that comes, which is such a great education. And I'm getting ahead of myself. So, Jana, welcome to the Sequoia Breeze, and I am so pleased that you are here.

Janna: Thank you, Rebecca. I'm so excited to be here and talk about not only book shark and literature based education, but also just my experience as a homeschool mom of three who has used this program. And so I really do understand some of the hesitation that families have when the books show up and you're not sure if you're going to make it through the 36 weeks, but also being homeschooled myself, I can say from the other side of it, just the benefits that come from being a homeschooled student and then turning into a homeschool mom.

Rebecca: So let's talk a little bit about at the very basis we can't really talk very, go very far into the nitty gritty, a book shark, without talking about a literature based education. So define that for us. What does that mean?

Janna: Sure. Well, on the surface, I think maybe there could be a misconception, because literature as being a book, most people would think, well, every book is literature based learning. But that is not true. Literature based learning is learning using different types of books. So stories, historical fiction, nonfiction, even literary components like poetry and praise. So it isn't just that it is book based. Our books are actually not textbooks. We teach through story. And I think that's a very important distinction when you're talking about literature based learning, that it is not just information and facts. It is taught through the perception of the characters and the country that they're living in or the time period that they're living in. So it's a great way to engage students in not only the facts that they need to know. History is. Definitely has its place for facts, but also history, in and of itself, is one big story. And so we're able to break down the larger story of history in using smaller stories with the books, fiction, nonfiction, all the other things.

Rebecca: Why would a family want to choose a literature based style for their homeschool?

Janna: I mean, I would counter with, why wouldn't they? But I would say, I'm with you.

Rebecca: But I want to hear your answer.

Janna: So, this is an interesting. This is an interesting fact. I was, you know, I was a mom who had my babies and lots of books, and, you know, people give you books, and you read books to your babies, and, you know, they can't even read yet, but you point out the pictures, and there's that exciting exchange of when they start to point at things, when they start to recognize words, and then, you know, you do the bedtime stories, and your kids get excited, and that's just a great way to do a bedtime routine. And I noticed in my home that when my own children were able to read on their own, we kind of stopped the collaborative reading. And it wasn't until we decided to homeschool and stumbled upon bookshark, quite literally, that I really understood that we can teach through the story. That's how, actually, we taught most of our children. Most of us taught our kids in the very beginning, and yet somehow we get this misconception that they can do it on their own, when really, when we're doing it together as a family. It is fun and engaging, and it fosters creativity and imagination, improves critical thinking. I mean, all of the things. All of the things. And I was shocked myself when I realized we don't read together anymore and just the power of corporate reading, actually.

Rebecca: Do you think that tackling a literature based style in a homeschool takes changing how you think a little bit about where education is coming from and what.

Janna: It looks like 100%. I think it's easy to assume that at a certain point in a student's academic career, we switch from that reading for pleasure, for knowledge. And it, in a sense, just becomes like, now you need to read for knowledge. You have to get smarter, and this is how you're going to do it. And we just forget that. Why is it that we read for fun when they were little and we saw how engaged they were and how exciting they were, how exciting it was for them. And then we turned around and said, okay, now you go read on your own, or I'm going to lecture you and you're going to understand what I'm trying to say. And we tended to make education very dry when it didn't need to be.

Rebecca: So I think one of the other really cool things about, I'm going to stop saying literature based every time because those are big words, but like learning through books, our family spent so much time doing that, and I think that we are richer, all of us together, because of it. And one of the things that to me is the biggest benefits is that we are learning together. It's not a choose what you need for 6th grade, fourth grade, second grade, kindergarten, necessarily. Right. Like, we get to do this together in a lot of ways.

Janna: Absolutely. And we get to do it in a way that creates a cohesive learning environment in our home. So we're not compartmentalizing by grade or by topic. We're saying we're going to learn together. And the kindergartner is going to take what the kindergartner can and we're going to start creating grooves in the brain so that when they get to second or third grade, they're going to have a hook because they're going to remember, oh, there was a place, you know, they may not verbally explain to you that they remember those things, but their brain, I mean, our brains are an amazing thing. So each child at each level is going to be able to glean from what you're choosing to learn together in a way that it's very interesting. I like to say this when I talk to parents all the time. You can give a college student and a high school student the exact same essay question, and they're going to answer it appropriately for their level of learning. And I think that a lot of people don't understand that can be applied at the younger ages, too. It's okay if you are reading from, let's say, a fifth grade level, your third grader is still going to be able to comprehend and learn from that and vice versa. If your older child is listening to a book, I mean, think about the books that we read and reread and reread. When the kids are little, they're still learning something from that. And I would say that a fifth grader hearing a story that they had heard when they were in third grade, their fifth grade mind is going to really see it in a different light. Their brain's more developed. So even though maybe they had, they're familiar with the story or we've already talked about that concept, it's coming through a new lens. And that's a really exciting way to see education and learning happen when you're in your family.

Rebecca: Their newer maturity now speaks into the two years of life experience that they have now speaks into that story. And they probably notice things they didn't know notice before, things that went over their head now all of a sudden, like, oh, I didn't even realize that's what was going on there last time. You know, they can pick up all kinds of things.

Janna: Well, I don't know if you've experienced that personally, but I know I have. There will be that. I look back and go, wow, I can't believe my parents let me watch that or read that. But I will tell you, at the time, it completely went over my head. Like I wasn't picking up on it because I was unaware of it. So, yeah, I mean, that, that's, you know, that's maybe a little negative part of that, but it's the same concept that you can be reintroduced or reread something and go, wow, I had no idea that it was that deep or now you have a connection to it in a totally different way. And that's what makes it so fun and engaging.

Rebecca: As I've gone through my various kids reading different stories and things, I've found that what each of them picks up because of how their own brains work is super interesting. Like, I just read Little House on the prairie with my, he was then six year old little boy and he loved it for very different reasons than me because it was all about PA building houses and digging wells and using machines and how did these things work. And he, he was so interested in PA and it never, I never noticed that really, that book isn't about Laura. It's about Pa and how he provides for them. And I think that as he gets.

Rebecca: Older, he would see all kinds of.

Rebecca: Nuances that were going on in that story that he didn't notice. Now, right now, he's just like, how do you get the roof on that place?

Janna: Right, right. That's what he's focused on. That's the important part. And you hear, like, you talking about. You've got tears right in your eyes. What are you talking about? Ma just struggled so hard.

Rebecca: And I know that my oldest daughter wasn't listening most of the time, but if she had, she'd be asking me questions about the horses and feeling bad for Jack that had to be tied up so he didn't attack people and, like, their minds just catch very different things. And so reading the story with your family can bring out all these different elements as different kids comment or ask questions about different parts.

Janna: Yeah. And I think this is a great place to also say that, because we provide discussion questions. Now, sometimes that's intimidating to people, but I think this is a great way to show that it's incredibly helpful, because I can read a book and you can read a book, and we're going to be focused, even as adults, on very different. Different aspects of the book because of our own experiences. So when you have some discussion questions that are very poignant on why or what they're asking, to kind of help you open your eyes to a part of the story that you're not really connected to or paying attention, or it just didn't. It didn't resonate with you. I think those questions really come in handy because you could read that story and just focus on Pa. You could read that story and just focus on the animals. But those discussion questions are going to make sure that you pull in different perspectives. And that's really the beauty of what our program does. It opens up different perspectives, and I think in order to teach creative or critical thinking, different perspectives are needed.

Rebecca: That's actually one of the things that I have really appreciated about using so much literature as well, is that it opens your eyes to so many different perspectives around the world as well. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Janna: Yeah. So, I mean, if you talk to any of our advisors here at Bookshark, there's one thing that we can all agree on, and it's that level f is our favorite level, and it is intro to world cultures in the eastern hemisphere. And when I explain to families why that level is just a favorite of all of us, it is because it is the different perspectives. We can easily look at another country and another culture that we are maybe familiar with on the surface, but not really understanding maybe how their religion really affects their day to day choices. So, for example, when you look at India and historically, their caste system and poverty and starvation, my daughter had said to me, well, I don't get why they just don't kill a cow. There's cows I don't understand. And it was like a great opportunity, and it was weaved in, not only in the story, but also in the curricula to talk about why they don't eat that animal. And so on the surface, it looks like an easy fix from a western perspective, eat the thing that's in abundance so you won't be hungry. But there's a very cultural reason why they don't. And then you start to understand, oh, that's why they make this decision. Or we. Speaking of India, I had no idea until I was in that level why Pakistan became a country and how Pakistan became a country. And I was like, I was like, I learned this at 42. Are you kidding me? Like, I had no clue. But when you have some background now, the conflict has a lot more context. Now I can understand why certain things have then happened since the time that country has been created. And it was, you know, oversimplification about religion and politics and was just like, things that we don't necessarily sit around and think about in the western hemisphere, but they do affect us because on a global scale, I mean, so much of our technology. Right, is coming from India. So much of that. I mean, it's just amazing. It's like, I think we should have a general understanding of what's going on on the other side of the world, because as much as we feel disconnected in our day to day, it actually does affect how things are ran globally.

Rebecca: Let's back up. When we're talking about family learning, we aren't only talking about reading novels aloud, right? I mean, family learning can span history. It can be done. I think science is so much better when there's more than one child learning it when possible, because it's fun to do experiments together and get different kids perspective. So science can be also done. Let's see, a lot of the literature as well. So usually math and language arts would need to be at their own, at the children's own level, but science and history can definitely be done together. Would you agree with that?

Janna: Absolutely. And that's definitely how we advise parents who do have the freedom to combine. And so if your families are in that category, that they have the freedom to combine. We encourage families to do history and science together. The language arts really depends on how far apart the children are. So we say if it's a three year span, and depending on their reading and writing ability, they may be able to stick together and use those same readers where we teach the grammar, the mechanics of writing, and then the different styles of writing. But if that's not always the case, then we do have some ways to customize the language arts within the lower levels. And then obviously math. You know, sometimes we say it's obvious, but depending on the family, you could have children that were two years apart still doing the same level for different reasons. Right. One is more advanced, and so they're with the older. I mean, there's so many different ways, but those options are definitely there. We say that history and science are subject based, right. You're getting information. You are learning through the story where language arts and math are definitely more ability based. And so we do have customizations within that to make sure that we're capturing your child where they are at and moving them forward from there.

Rebecca: So if you've got three kids, you don't automatically, and you're. You're starting to be interested in Bookshark, you don't go to the website and automatically order three levels of everything.

Janna: We would encourage you not to do so, because here's the thing. We want you to like bookshark, and we want you to come back. So I have three. My twins are four years older than my youngest child, and so I chose to keep them together and kind of tweak the material so that I wasn't, as the parent trying to read through twice, twice as much material. It doesn't. It's doable. Yeah. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not advisable for all of the things that we have said kind of takes away from the whole family learning, the cohesive learning environment. We definitely recommend that families stay together, at least if possible, in the history and science, and then again, language arts and math, depending on the ability. But when you're reading one, read aloud with your family, and you are not, you're doing something that you haven't done maybe in a long time, or, let's be honest, ever. It's. It's like using a part of your anatomy that is not used to being used. I could talk all day long, Rebecca, but I cannot read aloud all day long because I'm using my brain to decode as I'm reading and then I have to encode in English as I'm speaking out loud. So there is no shame in parents really knowing that when you first start to read out loud with a literature based curriculum, it's taxing if you're not used to it. And it takes time. And there's actually exercises that you can do to really help you get. Strengthen those vocal cords and get stamina for reading out loud. So there is no shame in coming to this with having some trepidation because you're not used to reading out loud from a chapter book or a novel, you know, for if you haven't done it. And if you did read out loud to your kids when they were little, those books were pretty quick and easy to get through.

Rebecca: Right. I've even heard of people like, okay, drink tea to make sure that your voice is feeling strong and to give yourself a little bit of a boost while you're. Because you are talking. If you're using the literature and the science and the history altogether, you are talking about sometimes, what, two to three, two ish hours of reading out loud?

Janna: Yeah, I would. It's. You know, it.

Rebecca: We have.

Janna: Yeah, we have some times definitely on our website we'll show you, like, what level, what, what we kind of average out. I will say that nobody expects any parent to sit down and read for an hour and a half straight. And it definitely, when broken up throughout your day and throughout your week. I really love to encourage families, especially when they're just getting started with any homeschool program, honestly, do a rolling start. You know, start with maybe two subjects for the first couple weeks or the first week, and then. And then add another one. Add another one and make sure that you schedule your time when you start your school year and when you have to be done so that you can do that. But it definitely helps so that you don't feel so overwhelmed, but also gives you some practice at the getting in there and really starting, like I said, to use muscles that you'd be surprised. You're like, gosh, this is kind of in the beginning, let's be honest. It's a little draining. But the other helpful tip is we're only a four day a week program. There are five days in a typical school week, and there are seven days in a week. So there is nothing that says you can't, especially when you first get started. Take that read aloud and stretch it out over the seven days. It doesn't have to just be done in the four days as we prescribe it. It's just great, you know, permission for parents to know that. We don't expect that when you're coming into this as a new homeschool parent, or even a veteran parent, depending on what you have been using in the past, to just jump into the deep end and not feel like you're drowning.

Rebecca: And I will say, too, once you get started, even if you feel tired pretty soon, you want to know what happens next too.

Janna: You do. It's tempting to read ahead also, instead of reading out loud. And sometimes that works for parents. Sometimes if you read it through, if you get to that point, you want to read ahead the night before so that when you read it, you're not decoding and encoding at the same time. And I'm not talking about parents who like, struggle to read themselves. This is just like humans who just who we can only do what we can do. So lots of tips and tricks. So I would definitely encourage parents. This is what I do when I get my book list, the first thing I do is go through my book list and see what is available, what's been made into a movie. Now I know that's ghastly. How could a literature based employee homeschool mom want to replace something with a movie? I will tell you, I have that in my back pocket for anything goes. Anything can happen in my 36 weeks, so I want to know which ones I can replace. If I need to replace it, then the next thing that I do is I go on to my library and I see what is available on the audiobook. Because I will tell you, eight years in, I still don't love to read out loud, but I love to listen to audiobooks. And if I can sit down and listen, if it's in the car, if I'm making dinner and we can put it on so I can multitask while doing it, I'm not taking anything away from the story. And quite honestly, I'm enjoying it that much more. So once I go through my book list and I see what my options are on that, I really feel less overwhelmed by the idea of reading through the books.

Rebecca: So let's jump into since you're talking about staggering starts for different subjects and you're talking about choosing movies for some, maybe I want to talk about the schedule that comes. So one of the things that's very cool about Bookshark is it's not just a big stack of books and that says read this. You get a very detailed schedule of which pages and how much to read every single day for four days a week for 36 weeks now, as a box checker and a rule follower, that was always a little bit like, I was really grateful, and within about a week, I was off track.

Janna: You about 95% of us.

Rebecca: And so when you start talking about, okay, I'm going to choose this book to do a movie, and, like. But then it doesn't match up with the science, and I'm twitching like, so. And if you're already starting at different times with different subjects, talk to us about who's in charge, me or the. Or the schedule, and how do I manage that?

Janna: We here at Bookshark love to reiterate that they are called instructor guides. They are not instructor bosses. They are not instructor dictators. They are not instructor supervisors. But I will say I am also a box checker. And what I have found over the years to help alleviate some of that anxiety that that produces. Right. So, on one hand, you have the people who are like, oh, good, I have freedom, and I'm just going to run with that. And then you have the other group of people where freedom actually creates anxiety in some ways. That's why we like to check the box. I found that if either I, you know, whited out the top of the schedule that had the week or the days, or I wrote it in a separate schedule, then I didn't have to see what I thought was behind Orlando not matching up. It really is important for parents to understand that they're choosing to homeschool because of, oh, my gosh, we all have our reasons, right? So many reasons why we're choosing, but it's not so that we can then be told what to do, because the pages tell us what to do. Now, I am one of those parents that gets through my 36 weeks. I mean, for the first, I would say probably six years, I was like, ugh. Checked the boxes. We got done. But I was also causing more stress on myself and my kids than necessary. So I don't think that those first year parents are gonna, you know, we're gonna keep reiterating, you're the boss. This is your choice. You're driving this train. If you did half of what we gave you, you would be getting a wonderful education to your children. But that's, you know, they want to follow the rules. People are rule followers. That that guide is there to help guide you. It is definitely a feast, and you do not have to eat everything we give you. It's like going to a buffet and thinking, I paid my $36. You're going to have to roll me out of here. You know, there is that, that compulsion to get your money's worth. Make sure you're not cheating your kids out of a quality education. I mean, there's a lot of factors that are involved in that, but at the same time, know that we give you so much almost with the expectation that you couldn't possibly necessarily do it all, especially if you put all the pieces in now. There are people who do, and I say, more power to you. And there's like, yay. But even if you don't check every box, your child is learning in a way that if you were from a traditional sense of education, it's really hard to gauge. It's really hard to go. Well, we didn't finished that today, but my gosh, we got off track and started going down this discussion that I had nothing to do with the book, but my children are learning things and they got excited about something. And so this is education. We want our kids to want to learn, and it's going to look different than what it says on the piece of paper in front of you.

Rebecca: So that goes back, I guess, a little to what we talked about at the very beginning, that in choosing a literature based education, you do have to shift your mindset from what traditional expectations look like.

Janna: Yeah.

Rebecca: And I.

Janna: You not only have to shift your mindset, you have to be prepared to learn a new way. And that, and that new way comes with time and openness and creativity. And some people, again, are more naturally creative. And other people haven't tapped in, maybe, to the creativity that's inside of them or they kind of haven't done it, kind of shut it down because life demands so many things from us as parents. But just realizing that this is an amazing opportunity to learn alongside your child. If you were not homeschooled, I had the benefit of being homeschooled, and I still had to unschool myself on schooling, which is kind of ridiculous, right? Like, because I had to remember, I had to remind myself, like, you're the adult. I will tell you, I have to remind myself quite a bit about a lot of things, but being an adult, that's like a daily, like, come on, you're in charge, you're the mom. You get to say when you get to say who, like. And being confident, too, that when you, when you get to make those decisions, I think there's a fear of failing your children, a big fear that nobody wants to fail their children in anything, in education, socially, emotionally, any of those things. And so there's a comfort in trying to public school at home so that you feel like you're doing it the right way. And so learning that there really isn't a right way, the right way is what works for you and your kids, and that looks different from everybody else. And to not compare not only to other people, but also not compared to how you did it. I mean, I was sitting there and my daughter is crying over math, and I'm just like, I don't get why you don't get it. Like, I just. I'm lost. You're crying, I'm crying. And then I had to stop and go, oh, that's right, I'm in charge. I'm in. I'm an adult. We can change how we do this. I was like, we're going to try something else. This is not working. And I don't have to keep trying to force it on you because I don't have to prove anything. And then not three months into choosing a new way, she came down to the dinner table and said, hey, dad, I'm good at math. And I thought, are you kidding me? To hear that from my kid was worth, I mean, it was worth it, but it was a struggle, and I'm in the middle of it. Right.

Rebecca: I think, too, sometimes, especially when you're a new homeschooler, it can be really hard to wait for the slow results when you're doing a literature based education. Some of those results are slow because they build slowly. Like, eventually you may have kids with fabulous vocabularies, but that doesn't happen after the first week. And sometimes we didn't even plan to talk about this, but I think it's an important thing to talk about. Sometimes it takes kids a while to learn to sit and listen. And so the beginning can be a little bit of a struggle even in, like, the kids are wiggly or they're interrupting you all the time. And so there's a lot of, you don't just teach some science, some history facts, and then give them a test. So there's no, like, at the end of the week, let's prove you learned all this. But there are building, building, building effects that do come, but it's kind of slow. So if you have a family member who's questioning what you're doing, you just sat around, read books all day. Like, it can take a lot. You're going to have to have a little bit of backbone to believe that you will find those results as you go along. Would you agree?

Janna: Yeah. And that's really countercultural. If you think about it. I mean, we are in a instant gratification. I mean, if you think about it, like, the other day, my computer was like, like, I clicked on something and it literally took like maybe 3 seconds. And I was like, gosh, why is this taking so long? Like, why? Why is an instant. Because we're so loose to lightning fast and get it when we want it, and I don't have to wait for anything. And then we decide to slow the pace by choosing a method that is time tested but not currently used in a lot of educational spaces. And, yeah, it isn't immediate. And you could have a child who is given facts and tested at the end of the week, but then if you ask them three weeks later what was on that test, they may or may not have memorized it deep enough that they could answer that question. And yet, if you ask a child about the story, about that history, the culture, something about the book, the recall, because it's connected in an emotional way, because those characters are the same age as your child, because the story maybe made them really think about something in their own life that connected them to that point in history. It's not just a fact now. It is something that they felt deeply about. So in four months, when you ask them, they could maybe not recall necessarily specific dates, but they can give you enough of the story that you're like, wow, you really were paying attention. That really did sink in. Okay. And then that builds upon itself and builds upon itself. And, yeah, I would agree when you start this, and we've had plenty of people who say, oh, it just didn't work for our family. My kids didn't like it. And I would just counter that. How much time did you give it, and what was your attitude while doing it? And did you find that because reading out loud wasn't something you were used to, did you give yourself enough time to get comfortable with it? Because it is a different way. I like to say to people, they come to the conventions, they show up in the booth and they say, we're new to homeschooling, and they say, welcome to a new world. You're going to have to learn. It's different vernacular, it's a different language, it's a different culture. I mean, we wouldn't go to another country and go, oh, this just isn't working right. Like, you would be prepared, you'd immerse yourself in it. You would expect that there's going to be a learning curve. And I think sometimes when parents start to homeschool, they don't give themselves enough time or even expect that there might be a learning curve.

Rebecca: Talk a little bit about how to help kids be good listeners.

Janna: Well, I would say that, first and foremost, if you know that your child is not the type of child who just wants to sit on your lap and gaze at you lovingly and soak in every word that comes out of your mouth, then you need to be prepared for some different scenarios. You know, I would say that a lot of the times my girls put together their legos while I read aloud or we listened to the audiobook, there are children who want to be stretching or upside down or, you know, moving bodies, but that doesn't mean that they're not listening. And, yeah, they may. They may not be listening. They're not. I mean, kids, you put them in a school and they're not listening the entire time there. Right? That's why daydreaming is a thing. Like, we all. We all do it. We're not 100% focused 100% of the time, and we need to remember that kids aren't either. And so it's okay that they're fidgety and they weren't created to just sit still, you know, sometimes just taking them outside and reading. Or there were times, I live in Colorado, and we don't necessarily get to go outside every single day because the weather. So we would just go to a different space. I'd get a spot at the library in one of the rooms. Sometimes just changing the environment, but also giving your children grace. They're learning a new way, too. They're not used to it. Another great tip is just setting a timer. I understand that our guides have pages assigned to each day, but it doesn't mean they have to all be read at the same time. So if you set a timer, whatever is appropriate for the age of your childhood, regardless of where that. Where what sentence or page you were on, when that timer goes off, that's when you stop. And if they want you to go on, you can then make a choice. Feel like life is choose your own adventure. You can set the timer again, or you can say, oh, I can't wait till we get back to it, but we're going to go do this. We're going to do brain break, body movement, whatever, and we're going to come back to it. That also helps that delayed gratification, learning that, okay, even in the story, even though we're doing what we're supposed to be doing, it's okay if we wait and read that next part, you know, and our books are kind of created that those stopping points are kind of a cliffhanger a lot of the times, because we do want the kids to be excited next time you pick up that book.

Rebecca: One of the odd side effects that I have noticed from reading all these years with our kids. First of all, it will say it has not always been easy. There have been a couple of times when my husband, who works from home, has come through and heard how many times the kids have interrupted me, and he spoke up and said, you guys have got to let mom get through this. And that has helped at times. Sometimes it was learning to, we've read in the sandbox when I had like a two year old and a six year old, they played in the sandbox while I read, and that really helped. But one of the funny side effects that we've had is I realized a couple years ago that my kids often don't look like they're listening to somebody. We had done an outdoor field trip and some naturalist was teaching, and I'm looking around going, why aren't they listening? I realized, oh, they are. They're just used to coloring, doing some handicraft, doing legos, doing something while they listen to me. And so they don't look at the person who's talking necessarily, because they've learned to entertain themselves while they're listening. So it's been an interesting, like, they very much have that skill. They just, I sometimes have to remind them, I need you to look like you're listening to them.

Janna: Can you please pretend and be normal for 2 seconds? Yes. Now I get it. I get it. It's a thing. For sure. For sure. But there are times where I thought, for sure, my one, you know, we all have a treasure, right? My one treasure. I would be like, I would stop and I would ask the question. And she, without even looking up, would answer the question. And I was like, oh, I should know better. I can't ever trip that kid up. Like, and kids don't. I mean, even, even in your own home, right? So kids are not, in a way, I guess, you know, we kind of, our kids are an extension of us. That is true in some respects. At the same time, that is so not true. Like, they are their own person. And while I would not choose to do it that way, it doesn't mean that if they are, that it's wrong. And I have learned just, I will tell you as parenting in general, but a homeschool parent think, you realize very quickly all of the misconceptions you had about parenting. And so I would say a lot of the times when I would get upset because they weren't responding or looking the way I thought they should, I would say, is this really about my kids or is this about me? Is this my expectation? Or, I mean, are they really doing something inappropriate? And nine times out of ten, it was really more about my expectation. I thought they should have been doing it this way or it should have looked this way while we were doing it. And I don't think that's uncommon for parents because we only know what we know. We just have to be open and willing to see it a different way. And at the very beginning, I felt like, oh, I'm just going to be a permissive parent. I'm just going to let my kids do whatever they want and they're going to go wild and I'm going to be that weird homeschool mom that can't control her kids. And I will tell you that did not happen because that wasn't giving your kids the opportunity to be themselves within the space of your home. And education isn't about letting them do whatever they want, but it is letting them be who they were created to be. And that looks very different than from me and from their siblings.

Rebecca: So we've covered how sometimes the kids need to learn how to listen. The parent, it can take a little while to build up some stamina. Be good listeners. The parent is in charge of the guide. The guide is not in charge of the family. Are there any other common pitfalls that families run into when they're using bookshark, things that kind of trip them up from success?

Janna: I think one of the biggest things that we see is families level their kids too high into our program. So. And I'm guilty of it as well when I first came.

Rebecca: Well, go ahead and describe the levels. Sure. Talking about grade level, right?

Janna: Correct. So we, we level our program in an age range for the very purpose of families being able to work through the levels together. So we have starting at level p, which is four to five, and then you go into a, which is five to eight, and then b, six to, not like six to eight, like five to seven, six to eight. So there's a little bit of overlap in each of the levels, and that's on purpose. So if you come into the program, a could be kindergarten, but a could also be second grade, depending on how you put your language arts and math in. We really encourage families to level in their oldest child at the higher end of the age range. So if you're new to Bookshark and you look at level a like, you can choose, say you have. Say you have a six year old, you could definitely do level a because it's five to seven, or you could do level b because it's six to eight. We would say definitely consider level a and then make sure that you take the assessment for the language arts because that's customizable. And the math, what happens is people go, oh, well, my child's sick, so I'm going to put them in level b. And then there's an expectation of that level is actually made from six to eight. And so maybe you're expecting your child who's six, who hasn't been in a literature based program to be able to consume the information like an eight year old who has been in the program for at least a year. So leveling too high, I think, is one of the biggest pitfalls. So if you're looking at a level for bookshark, we really encourage you to look that your child be closer to the higher age range instead of the lower age range.

Rebecca: And that would also make it difficult if your six year old is in level b once your four year old is in school. It's real difficult to combine at that point, isn't it?

Janna: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. You definitely have to be taking into consideration who's coming up with you as you, especially in those younger years, to know, you know, because then if you did b and then the next year you did c, but then they were in a and now you're, I mean, now you're trying to juggle two levels and mom's pulling her hair out and it just wouldn't be necessary.

Rebecca: So because you're not, they're all excellent books, so you're not holding your kid back by putting them in a lower level.

Janna: Correct.

Rebecca: Not a. It's not about achievement at that point. Right.

Janna: Well, I mean, truly, it is more about first being able to introduce them to a new way of learning. If they're coming out of a public brick and mortar, it's totally different than sitting in a classroom and being instructed corporately, but also it is really getting them where they're at. So because you can customize your language arts and math at the lower levels, you know, it's such a wide range of ability. It's not uncommon that a seven year old can read at a fourth or fifth grade level. What is uncommon is that they're writing at that level. So taking the assessments for reading and language arts is really going to help make sure that they're placed exactly where their ability is in writing with the assumption that they're reading at that level. There are some nuances to book shark that can really set you up for success, or you can fail very quickly if you're not leveled in properly. And that's why we do have advisors who are available Monday through Friday. We are all homeschool parents that have used the program for multiple years with multiple children, and so utilizing that resource is incredibly helpful. Instead of just going on the website and picking a level and saying, that's the one I want to do.

Rebecca: History and literature, do parents ever stretch that 36 weeks into more than one school year?

Janna: I've had parents actually do one level over two years and felt like it was more than adequate. You have control over the curriculum once it comes. So if that means that it takes you 40 weeks, if that means that you ended school in May, but you didn't get to the 36 weeks, then you just pick up where you left off when you decide to start again. And even that is really hard for people to swallow sometimes. But the truth is, you are using it in your home, the way that works for you.

Rebecca: Like I said, way back at the beginning, that this big stack of wonderful books comes, and it can feel a little overwhelming. And there's clearly several tools and hints to keeping that from happening. Are there any other tools that Bookshark has available?

Janna: So one of the newer initiatives that we began back in 2020 when we found, you know, a lot of people were at home with their children, and new to bookshark, we created a bootcamp. And that bootcamp is available to all of our customers. It is a nine week video session that are live but can be replayed when it is convenient for the customer. That really goes from your box showed up. Now what do I do? All the way to planning out your entire year to include vacations, holidays, and other breaks. There are ways to set up your day and what works for some people and how it can look different for other people. We talk about different rules of timing, instruction and breaks, and really just tips and tricks in how to categorize your books, how to know when to pull out, what, how to put away the things that you aren't using right away so you don't feel overwhelmed. How do you put together that big binder? And why do I need to do that? So we really help kind of demystify the program from the very beginning for people who want to join and want to know how to set themselves up for success.

Rebecca: Talk about high school. How does this work? Does Bookshark have high school levels, and how does that work?

Janna: Bookshark does have high school levels. Right now we have four levels that are what we consider age appropriate for high school. So again, those are still age ranged, but they are like 13 to 1514 to 16 and then 16 to 18. So we have our two newest high school levels, our world history. History, and you can add world literature. They are independent subjects, but they are complementary. So history and lit can go hand in hand in the world for high school. And also us history and us lit go hand in hand in high school. And then we've recently partnered with home science tools for chemistry and biology. And what's really exciting about this partnership is they teach through the science experiment. So it's very hands on. There is no gigantic textbook that has to overwhelm parent or child. And we have a virtual option now really available through all of our levels. But I find that it's really helpful in the high school years to create independence for both the student and the parent. They're still getting all of the books, all of our great literature, all of the guides, the way we always have created them, but they have the ability to go online to an online platform to do the discussion. Questions are now more in an assessment form. So it's multiple choice, drag and drop short answers. They can do that part of the program online. It scores it immediately if it's objective, if it's subjective, it will need a parent or teacher to come in and score it. But it'll give you the answer so that you're not having to keep up pace with the reading of your high school student. If you're giving them more autonomy, we'll give you the synopsis and a short little blip on what the answer should be. So it's a really great combination of being able to have a literature based program, but also getting familiar with some online and different assessments that you may end up seeing as you test later on for different things and then go into college.

Rebecca: That sounds like it could be a really helpful option for families.

Janna: I know it's helped me as a working mom. You know, even though I work for a curriculum company, I still work. And I went from part time to full time in the last year. I will say it's been incredibly helpful now that I'm down to one child homeschooling to not get lost in my day to day tasks, and I'm like, oh, wait, there's another person here. And they're supposed to be doing something too. So I get an alert on my email and a text on my phone every time she turns in something. So I know that she's on task. I don't have to stop from what I'm doing to go kind of chase her down and make sure she's doing what she's supposed to be doing. It's been. It's been great.

Rebecca: So, Jenna, we are getting a little short on time, but there are two more questions I think are important to ask you. And that is, who shouldn't use bookshark? Is it for everybody?

Janna: Well, I mean, I think it's for everybody, but I know that I think everyone could use it and really enjoy it, but I also know that. But one size doesn't fit all, and that is the beauty of homeschooling. So if you have a family who really knows already how they want to educate their child or what they want to educate their child with, and by that, I mean, like, culturally perspective timeline, where they want to start in history, where they want to end in history, what they want to focus on as they're going through the different subjects. I mean, those aren't the type of people who are going to come to a box curriculum. They are gonna. They're gonna do their own thing. And I say, more power to you. I am happy that there are those people out there now for the rest of us who tend to get sidetracked or have a little bit of ADHD all day long with everything, to have a book list, to have it already prescribed, to have somebody already do the legwork with the literature based on some really good criteria for picking books. Books. You know, I'm an avid reader. I have been since I was a child. But I would hate to go into a library and start picking out books and trying to decide which ones were going to be a good fit. But there are people who love to do that. So if that's you, then you're not necessarily going to want to come into a curriculum that picks the books for you. So, I mean, that would maybe be the type of family that this wouldn't work for. But really beyond that, I think it's fabulous for anybody.

Rebecca: So the last question I was thinking about was, I trust book sharks, book choices, because I have some experience and I know a little bit about how those books are chosen, but I know as a parent, if I go and I find some website that says, here's a great list of books you should read with your kids, I want to know, who are you? How did you choose these books. Do I trust your choices? I have no idea. Do I have to pre read all of these? Why should I trust, if I'm not familiar with bookshark, why should I trust those literature choices?

Janna: Well, we definitely have criteria that we put when we're picking any book. So some of those things are we need to make sure that we have real or realistic characters. They're not going to be flawless people who have no problems. You know, you're not going to read a superhero book in our curriculum because we're really trying to connect with children on a human level in a real way with real people. So they're going to be real characters. They're going to have, all of our books are going to have solid character development. So people are going to grow in the story, they're going to change their perspective, they're going to face a problem and they're going to conquer the problem or they're going to fail the first time and they're going to realize how they can go back and try again. Definitely the content has to add to the reader's cultural literacy. So we are picking books to make sure that they're going to give background, they're going to give reference and context to the part of history that you are reading about. Definitely intriguing and multi generated dimensional plot. Nobody wants to sit there and read a book that is, like, rare, or we know what's going to happen, or this is like every other thing that we've read through. We definitely want our books to have some compelling part of the story, and in that emotionally compelling, the story has to connect with the reader and the listener in an emotional way. And that's not going to be every book for every family. And I think that's an important distinction. Just because we chose a book based on this criteria, it may not connect with you, but it doesn't mean that it's still not a good story and it doesn't have value. Not all books, you're not. You know, we all read books and one person's like, oh, my gosh, did you read that book? Or, you know, did you see that movie? It was so good. And you're just like, really? Yeah, I did not like it. I did not see what you see in that. But that's that multi perspective, right? Like, it's important to read books that we not necessarily gravitate towards because it piques our interest, because it's helping us stretch ourselves. Another thing is that it's verbally beautiful. We really want to make sure that whether you're reading it, your child is reading it on their own or out loud. They are getting really superb verbiage fluency in what they're reading. It reads well. And that doesn't always mean easy to read, right? Like, sometimes in that stretching, you're like, what? But again, it's. There is. In the context of what you're reading, it is verbally beautiful. And then a lot of the last criteria is that it's really rereadable. We want our kids and our families to be able to talk about these stories. You know, just like you and I were talking about level f and the stories. It's like. Like we want that. Recall that whatever that emotional connection we had with that time period, with that culture, to be able to be relatable so that when your child recalls that or starts telling somebody about that, they get excited or it makes them sad. It grieves them of what has happened in the past so that we don't make those same mistakes in this next generation going forward. So there's a lot of thought in picking the books that we pick, and we've been now available for ten years, and so I think we've got some bragging rights in that.

Rebecca: What I have found so interesting about a lot of these books is I probably never would have picked them up on my own, and I end up absolutely loving them. And it's really interesting when, if I was the one going to the library, I'd be like, meh. I would have put it aside without realizing what a quality, what a compelling story it was or characters. I just can't forget. And obviously, it's not just about me and my kids as well, you know, and the people that become a part of their lives through those stories.

Janna: Yeah, yeah. And the perspectives, that is not yours. That's important that we really, you know, we want critical thinkers. We want our children to be lifelong learners. So introducing different perspectives, I think, is part of that process. But also knowing that the characters that we're introducing these books are rooted in a, you know, a general morality. Your kids are not going to be exposed to things that, you know, would have, on the majority, be shocking. And I will say that because history is harsh, some of the stories do have some hard things in them, but we make sure that we give the parents a heads up, like, hey, there's going to be a reference to this. You are in charge of this curriculum. You can totally skip this chapter or this scene. You can totally talk about it. You can gloss over it, or you can get in depth with your kids. And I think that, again, is a great conversation starter because we both know that life can be hard. And so in order for our kids to be able to weather the storms as they age, it's important to introduce topics. But you, as the parent, get to decide if that's appropriate at that time for your child.

Rebecca: Jenna, thank you so much. I know we could keep talking both because we love books and because there's just a lot to this curriculum. And I know that a lot of our sequoia grove families are. Have used these books. I know that we have a lot of these books in our lending library because they have been purchased in the past. So it's just a spectacular resource for us. But I also know that it can be overwhelming. And I hate to see families be overwhelmed by their curriculum choices because homeschooling can is meant to be such a wonderful experience. Not always wonderful moments, but overall wonderful experience. And then we don't want the curriculum to cause that, to cause frustration. So thank you for helping us to take some of that apart and finding some ways to start out with success in using book shark.

Janna: Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk about something that I truly do love and believe in so much that, but again, having used it in my own home, we're going on year nine, so it's pretty amazing to be a part of this and to be able to share a love of something that, you know, I just think if everybody could have, if everybody would, if not ours, definitely a program that uses literature to really open the eyes of people.

Rebecca: Thank you for joining us. Jan, I really appreciate your time.

Janna: Thank you so much.

Rebecca: Rebecca listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope that you feel inspired by the possibilities that a literature based education offers. That has been the method that our family has chosen more often than not, and that has created a lot of wonderful memories for us. I feel so strongly about good books that I hope that you can give.

Rebecca: It a try, or at least maybe.

Rebecca: Add in read alouds to your school day if that's isn't something you've already been doing. And if you are interested in Bookshark, I just want to remind you that our lending library has several copies of most of these books. So if you want to check a couple of them out and see what they're like, you could do that. You can always order the instructional guide for your family and borrow the books from the lending library, saving some funds for other activities. Do you know someone who would be encouraged by this episode? Please send this to a friend and like and review on whatever platform you listen to. I really enjoyed getting to know Jana and gleanning the wisdom that she had to share with us today. Thank you for joining us here on the Sequoia Breeze podcast, a breath of fresh air for your whole homeschool. I am your host, Rebecca La Savio. Join us next week for a great episode on gardening with your kids.